Can Lloyd Recruit?

[YoDeFoe]

So, bottom line is Lloyd gets 2 years minimum even if he faceplants, so none of this really matters. What I've seen so far, it seems the short term outlook is worse and the long term outlook is completely hazy and unknown. So it's hard for me to be particularly excited about Lloyd, especially when compared to Miller.

1) Good to see you kicking around.

2) Completely agree with this and I hope we all can rest on this whether we like it or not. Yeah, we took a step back losing Miller. No, we don't know what the long-term future will hold. But this is our guy for the next few seasons and there's no sense in getting worked up, looking backwards, or even judging him right now.

[UAEebs86]

There's no reason to get worked up over "was this the right hire????????" when we're in the middle of the offseason and this is our hire. It's both too early and too late to have these conversations.

Are you new here?

[UofAlum05]

If Lloyd is a failure after Year 2 then Robbins & Heeke need to follow him out the door.

[midnightx]

2) Completely agree with this and I hope we all can rest on this whether we like it or not. Yeah, we took a step back losing Miller. No, we don't know what the long-term future will hold. But this is our guy for the next few seasons and there's no sense in getting worked up, looking backwards, or even judging him right now.

Well, it is unclear if losing Miller was a step back. The program was damaged, and as long as he remained the head coach, the national narrative surrounding the program was going to continue to be negative, ultimately impacting recruiting and credibility. If Lloyd is a bust, then it becomes a step back on some level, but like it or not, Arizona did not have a lot of options after parting ways with its embattled coach.

Lloyd did not take over a good situation, and while he certainly inherited a better roster than Miller did (albeit one that he had to recruit to keep largely intact), the program was arguably in much worse shape than it was when Miller took over. Things were a bit unstable when Miller arrived, but not like now, where the program is facing uncertainty due to potentially serious ramifications from the FBI/NCAA fallout, as well as a couple of years of very negative national exposure.

Tommy may be making some inroads with some recruits, but it will be surprising if he immediately reels in some major players due to Arizona's issues, and frankly his untested reputation as a head coach. If he has a good year next season with a decent roster, it will not be surprising if high level recruits start to recommit to the program knowing he can deliver as a coach.

[BBQ wildcat]

2) Completely agree with this and I hope we all can rest on this whether we like it or not. Yeah, we took a step back losing Miller. No, we don't know what the long-term future will hold. But this is our guy for the next few seasons and there's no sense in getting worked up, looking backwards, or even judging him right now.

Well, it is unclear if losing Miller was a step back. The program was damaged, and as long as he remained the head coach, the national narrative surrounding the program was going to continue to be negative, ultimately impacting recruiting and credibility. If Lloyd is a bust, then it becomes a step back on some level, but like it or not, Arizona did not have a lot of options after parting ways with its embattled coach.

Lloyd did not take over a good situation, and while he certainly inherited a better roster than Miller did (albeit one that he had to recruit to keep largely intact), the program was arguably in much worse shape than it was when Miller took over. Things were a bit unstable when Miller arrived, but not like now, where the program is facing uncertainty due to potentially serious ramifications from the FBI/NCAA fallout, as well as a couple of years of very negative national exposure.

Tommy may be making some inroads with some recruits, but it will be surprising if he immediately reels in some major players due to Arizona's issues, and frankly his untested reputation as a head coach. If he has a good year next season with a decent roster, it will not be surprising if high level recruits start to recommit to the program knowing he can deliver as a coach.

What are you smoking? We had a roughly top 15 team projected for next year under Miller. Lloyd was able to keep some of the guys, but now we aren't projected in the top 50 or so. Under Miller, we would have had a legitimat shot at making swwet 16 or elite 8 in next year's tourney (and possibly reach FF with a few breaks and bounces). If Lloyd can't get us at least into the top 25 and a tourney bid (a big step down from where Miller likely would have taken us), to me he will have failed his first big test.

And Lloyd took over a program in MUCH better shape than Miller inherited.

[Chicat]

So, bottom line is Lloyd gets 2 years minimum even if he faceplants, so none of this really matters. What I've seen so far, it seems the short term outlook is worse and the long term outlook is completely hazy and unknown. So it's hard for me to be particularly excited about Lloyd, especially when compared to Miller.

1) Good to see you kicking around.

2) Completely agree with this and I hope we all can rest on this whether we like it or not. Yeah, we took a step back losing Miller. No, we don't know what the long-term future will hold. But this is our guy for the next few seasons and there's no sense in getting worked up, looking backwards, or even judging him right now.

But this thread questions whether he can recruit. You’d HAVE TO look backwards through his career to feel the least hint of optimism and you HAVE TO judge him right now because this next class he brings in needs to put us back up near the top of the conference.

[IndianaZonaFan]

According to Choo…If we kept miller and Akinjo, we would have lost Benn and Dalen.

Miller raves about Kerr, so I’m fine with him as our starting PG.

Pelle is solid as a 2 with some size

Benn is elite.

Tubelis is elite.

That’s a great starting 4. Add in Koloko or Terry.

Rest of rotation- Nowell, Kier

Potential guys- Bal, and Ballo

I think this is a top 20-30 team, especially if Lloyd’s system is what we hope it will be.

[Dave]

We were a top 15 team before we lost one starter (Akinjo), two borderline top 100 freshman recruits and a handful of bench players. Now we are projected somewhere below 50. I am guessing we will be somewhere in between that.
My biggest concern right now is team depth. Especially in the post. I could come up with a pretty solid 7 man rotation, but it gets really questionable after that.
Can Lloyd recruit? I guess the jury is still out. Just give us one solid big. We're not even asking for a 5 star.

[TheCat]

According to Choo…If we kept miller and Akinjo, we would have lost Benn and Dalen.

Pure speculation and I feel highly unlikely.

[YoDeFoe]

I think we have three all conference level players in Tubelis, Mathurin, and Larsson.

Yes - Larsson.

I'm telling y'all, this kid is going to get drafted. He's 6'5" with a 6'9" wingspan, heck of an athlete, plays through contact, shoots >40% from three and has a killer IQ. He can create for himself getting to the basket with a quick first step or a jumper off the pull-up. And the kid can defend with his broad frame, length, and active hands.

I know we lament the inability to win TyTy and Garcia, but Lloyd beat Kansas for Larsson's talents and I think y'all are gonna be VERY happy this kid is on our team.

Larrson - Mathurin - Tubelis

That's a ton of size, athleticism, passing, and shooting for the other team to cover. We're going to be good y'all.

[Dave]

I have watched all the video I can find on Larsson. I agree 100%. He is going to be fun to watch this season.

[YoDeFoe]

In the running

[midnightx]

2) Completely agree with this and I hope we all can rest on this whether we like it or not. Yeah, we took a step back losing Miller. No, we don't know what the long-term future will hold. But this is our guy for the next few seasons and there's no sense in getting worked up, looking backwards, or even judging him right now.

Well, it is unclear if losing Miller was a step back. The program was damaged, and as long as he remained the head coach, the national narrative surrounding the program was going to continue to be negative, ultimately impacting recruiting and credibility. If Lloyd is a bust, then it becomes a step back on some level, but like it or not, Arizona did not have a lot of options after parting ways with its embattled coach.

Lloyd did not take over a good situation, and while he certainly inherited a better roster than Miller did (albeit one that he had to recruit to keep largely intact), the program was arguably in much worse shape than it was when Miller took over. Things were a bit unstable when Miller arrived, but not like now, where the program is facing uncertainty due to potentially serious ramifications from the FBI/NCAA fallout, as well as a couple of years of very negative national exposure.

Tommy may be making some inroads with some recruits, but it will be surprising if he immediately reels in some major players due to Arizona's issues, and frankly his untested reputation as a head coach. If he has a good year next season with a decent roster, it will not be surprising if high level recruits start to recommit to the program knowing he can deliver as a coach.

What are you smoking? We had a roughly top 15 team projected for next year under Miller. Lloyd was able to keep some of the guys, but now we aren't projected in the top 50 or so. Under Miller, we would have had a legitimat shot at making swwet 16 or elite 8 in next year's tourney (and possibly reach FF with a few breaks and bounces). If Lloyd can't get us at least into the top 25 and a tourney bid (a big step down from where Miller likely would have taken us), to me he will have failed his first big test.

And Lloyd took over a program in MUCH better shape than Miller inherited.

First, you sound delusional asserting Miller had a top fifteen caliber team returning, one capable of making a deep run. Talk about smoking something. There was talent, but they hardly showed signs of being a top fifteen contender based on last season's play. That team was not at the level of the great teams of years past, not even close. While Tommy seems to have inherited more talent than Miller did, the program was not nearly as damaged in 2009 as the one Tommy inherited, one that is potentially facing serious sanctions and that has had its credibility severely damaged over the past 3 years. But hopefully you are correct, hopefully Tommy has truly inherited a championship caliber team.

[TheCat]

Think you are vastly underrating the challenges Miller faced. 3 coaches in two years and no real idea if a coach from Xavier could recruit the West Coast, or coach at this level period. He just out worked everyone till he was fired. I don't think he came up with a top 15 team I think that was the media's expectation.

[ekat]

Think you are vastly underrating the challenges Miller faced. 3 coaches in two years and no real idea if a coach from Xavier could recruit the West Coast, or coach at this level period. He just out worked everyone till he was fired. I don't think he came up with a top 15 team I think that was the media's expectation.

Also worth noting that Miller early on had a scholarship loss and recruiting sanctions from the mess rear was the Cactus Classic.

[Postmaster]

Miller did have the advantage that the team was proficient in the Claw.

[Merkin]

Pennell did take his team to the S16 as a 12 seed.

Before being destroyed by 1 seed UL.

[Postmaster]

I wish Parrom was in that game

[Spaceman Spiff]

So, bottom line is Lloyd gets 2 years minimum even if he faceplants, so none of this really matters. What I've seen so far, it seems the short term outlook is worse and the long term outlook is completely hazy and unknown. So it's hard for me to be particularly excited about Lloyd, especially when compared to Miller.

1) Good to see you kicking around.

2) Completely agree with this and I hope we all can rest on this whether we like it or not. Yeah, we took a step back losing Miller. No, we don't know what the long-term future will hold. But this is our guy for the next few seasons and there's no sense in getting worked up, looking backwards, or even judging him right now.

Kicking around is what I'm good at.

I see it like this. I agree on the step back. I think it's ok to judge Lloyd so far because:

1. Fans are gonna do it. Just regardless, it's impossible not to.
2. It's always fair to pass judgment as long as you're reasonable about what's left to be determined.

For Lloyd, I'm very meh so far and see him as a step back, as said above. What's to be determined is if he can get us back to the level Miller had us pointing towards and/or exceed that?

That future is what will ultimately determine what Tommy Lloyd is here. If he succeeds there, this first part will be an afterthought. If he fails, this first part will be when we saw what was coming our way.

[Beachcat97]

So, bottom line is Lloyd gets 2 years minimum even if he faceplants, so none of this really matters. What I've seen so far, it seems the short term outlook is worse and the long term outlook is completely hazy and unknown. So it's hard for me to be particularly excited about Lloyd, especially when compared to Miller.

1) Good to see you kicking around.

2) Completely agree with this and I hope we all can rest on this whether we like it or not. Yeah, we took a step back losing Miller. No, we don't know what the long-term future will hold. But this is our guy for the next few seasons and there's no sense in getting worked up, looking backwards, or even judging him right now.

Kicking around is what I'm good at.

I see it like this. I agree on the step back. I think it's ok to judge Lloyd so far because:

1. Fans are gonna do it. Just regardless, it's impossible not to.
2. It's always fair to pass judgment as long as you're reasonable about what's left to be determined.

For Lloyd, I'm very meh so far and see him as a step back, as said above. What's to be determined is if he can get us back to the level Miller had us pointing towards and/or exceed that?

That future is what will ultimately determine what Tommy Lloyd is here. If he succeeds there, this first part will be an afterthought. If he fails, this first part will be when we saw what was coming our way.

Welcome back, Spiff!

[Spaceman Spiff]

According to Choo…If we kept miller and Akinjo, we would have lost Benn and Dalen.

So, I am no insider, and I don't have connections outside this board and two friends.

I have come to think this take is pro-Lloyd PR. First, it hands Lloyd a W for retaining Terry and Mathurin and excuses losing Akinjo.

Second, no one said this was the case prior to Miller's firing. Third, Terry and Mathurin had a full month to leave in the best market a transfer could ask for and didn't even dip a toe. It's hard for me to square that with them being so over Akinjo and Miller they couldn't be re-recruited.

It's a heck of a coincidence this take emerged as Lloyd needed a positive sign when Tyty and Kaluma fell through. This was a summer coaches had to re-recruit their guys. I'm not saying Terry or Mathurin were happy as clams, but I doubt they were too far gone to be successfully re-recruited.

[gronk4heisman]

First, you sound delusional asserting Miller had a top fifteen caliber team returning, one capable of making a deep run. Talk about smoking something. There was talent, but they hardly showed signs of being a top fifteen contender based on last season's play. That team was not at the level of the great teams of years past, not even close. While Tommy seems to have inherited more talent than Miller did, the program was not nearly as damaged in 2009 as the one Tommy inherited, one that is potentially facing serious sanctions and that has had its credibility severely damaged over the past 3 years. But hopefully you are correct, hopefully Tommy has truly inherited a championship caliber team.

It was a national consensus on the early preseason rankings before Miller was fired we had a team consistently ranked between 12 - 21. So someone asserting that is not that delusional. That team has mostly dispersed since then, we lost Akinjo who was set to be our leader and replaced him with no one else proven to be able to run the 1. We lost 6th man of the year Jordan Brown who while he had his limitations was very necessary in our front court that now consists of just Tubelis, Koloko and Ballo (who is still just a project). I have questions about this teams talent (appears some people believe everyone will hit their maximum ceiling this year) and even more questions about Tommy's ability to create a roster but we will see how it all works out in the coming months.

[Spaceman Spiff]

First, you sound delusional asserting Miller had a top fifteen caliber team returning, one capable of making a deep run. Talk about smoking something. There was talent, but they hardly showed signs of being a top fifteen contender based on last season's play. That team was not at the level of the great teams of years past, not even close. While Tommy seems to have inherited more talent than Miller did, the program was not nearly as damaged in 2009 as the one Tommy inherited, one that is potentially facing serious sanctions and that has had its credibility severely damaged over the past 3 years. But hopefully you are correct, hopefully Tommy has truly inherited a championship caliber team.

I'm that delusional too. First, the pure stat rankings on returners had us top 15. Further, most polls had us just about there.

Look at what Tubelis and Mathurin have done this summer, that's the reason for optimism. Those guys are very good. If Lloyd succeeds, it will be due to Miller's recruits. Miller succeeded due to his first class of DWill, Hill, Parrom, Momo and to a lesser extent, Kyryl.

I'm not exactly of the mind the last 3 years tarnished much. Teams like Kentucky, Duke and UNC had major struggles over that period too. Those things happen. Teams in the FBI scandal like Louisville struggled even more.

[Dave]

Hey Spiff,
Did you ever run metrics on Akinjo? We all know he scored a decent amount of points, but how efficient was he?

[Spaceman Spiff]

Hey Spiff,
Did you ever run metrics on Akinjo? We all know he scored a decent amount of points, but how efficient was he?

CBB reference is a great site for stuff like that.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/pl ... njo-1.html

So the first stat of note under the Advanced tab is PER. No clue your familiarity with PER, so I'll give a short summary. It's developed so that average efficiency should be a 15.0. A criticism is that it weights rebounding too heavily, so post players who rebound and shoot dunks/layups are disproportionately rated, where guards can falter.

Akinjo was 18.2 last year and has trended upwards all 3 years. Not unreal, but not bad, and if he continues to add about 2.0 per year, being in the 20 range would be good for a guard.

His TSP and EFG %'s are not bad, but an area for improvement. Neither sucks, but to be a big time guy, both should improve by about 5-10%.

His ast% of 31 is fine, although not an obvious strength. His 13.4 TO% is ok for a main creator, although you hope as a senior he pulls to 10% or lower, which would be excellent.

Across the board, I'd say his efficiency was satisfactory to good, but no one category was great. The biggest upside for me is he's seemed to improve incrementally year to year, so you would hope as a senior, his best is still to come.

Just my take, apologies if the PER explanation is basic, just wanted to try to give a good answer.

Edit: And this tends to back up what I thought about Akinjo. He had a 4 game stretch from UCSB to Montana where he shot 17-69, a tick under 25%. He just had a few stinkers in losses like 0-9 in the SC loss at home and 2-9 in the ugly Utah road loss.

If he could even out those sort of games, that alone would help a lot. When he shot ok, he was a solidly efficient guard, IMO, just those outlier games dragged him down.

[YoDeFoe]

It was a national consensus on the early preseason rankings before Miller was fired we had a team consistently ranked between 12 - 21. So someone asserting that is not that delusional. That team has mostly dispersed since then, we lost Akinjo who was set to be our leader and replaced him with no one else proven to be able to run the 1. We lost 6th man of the year Jordan Brown who while he had his limitations was very necessary in our front court that now consists of just Tubelis, Koloko and Ballo (who is still just a project). I have questions about this teams talent (appears some people believe everyone will hit their maximum ceiling this year) and even more questions about Tommy's ability to create a roster but we will see how it all works out in the coming months.

I'm nothing if not an eternal optimist about the likelihood of our guys stepping up over an offseason

I do believe there's good reason to like the chances for Tubelis, Mathurin, Kerr, and Larsson especially given that they were first year international players last season. Each described a transition to the American / NCAA game as a difficulty for them. So coupling a learned familiarity of the style of play with the traditional freshman to sophomore leap supports the idea of a nice step up for each of those. Toss in the additional boon of Lloyd's more international style of offense offset by the transition to a new offensive style (and program, for Larsson, though in-conference helps).

[YoDeFoe]

Hey Spiff,
Did you ever run metrics on Akinjo? We all know he scored a decent amount of points, but how efficient was he?

His TSP and EFG %'s are not bad, but an area for improvement. Neither sucks, but to be a big time guy, both should improve by about 5-10%.

52% TS and 46% eFG%

Looking at the last three seasons for a point of comparison, he had a similar effective FG% and True Shooting % as Brandon Williams, Justin Coleman, Nico Mannion, Josh Green, and Dylan Smith.

We wouldn't call any of those players particularly efficient scorers.

The trouble for James is that though he scored a lot of efficient threes (40% of his attempts were threes and he shot about 40%) - he loved to take inefficient two point jumpers (40% of his attempts, 31% scoring) and he just could not score at the rim (20% of his attempts, 43% scoring). You can make up for some of that by getting to the foul line often, but Akinjo had only a 39% free-throw rate... not bad, but "good" would be 5-10% higher.

As I'll always love to repeat: the S-tier in scoring efficiency among guards over the last ten years was Allonzo Trier (66% TS and 60% eFG). Doubt anyone matches those highs anytime soon, but Spiff is right that to be considered an efficient scorer generally: you'd hope to see a 5-10% improvement on the numbers Akinjo (and those others) put up.

Nice resource here as well as Sports Reference as Spiff noted: https://hoop-math.com/Arizona2021.php

[Dave]

Thanks Spiff!

[Beachcat97]

I might be alone here, but I also love the idea of being an underdog. We're not used to being this far under the radar. Lloyd is an unproven commodity, for the most part. That means he's hungry. Our players are hungry too. A lot of things would have to break in our favor, but ffs, aren't we due?! We've had some shit luck for a while.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Hey Spiff,
Did you ever run metrics on Akinjo? We all know he scored a decent amount of points, but how efficient was he?

His TSP and EFG %'s are not bad, but an area for improvement. Neither sucks, but to be a big time guy, both should improve by about 5-10%.

52% TS and 46% eFG%

Looking at the last three seasons for a point of comparison, he had a similar effective FG% and True Shooting % as Brandon Williams, Justin Coleman, Nico Mannion, Josh Green, and Dylan Smith.

We wouldn't call any of those players particularly efficient scorers.

The trouble for James is that though he scored a lot of efficient threes (40% of his attempts were threes and he shot about 40%) - he loved to take inefficient two point jumpers (40% of his attempts, 31% scoring) and he just could not score at the rim (20% of his attempts, 43% scoring). You can make up for some of that by getting to the foul line often, but Akinjo had only a 39% free-throw rate... not bad, but "good" would be 5-10% higher.

As I'll always love to repeat: the S-tier in scoring efficiency among guards over the last ten years was Allonzo Trier (66% TS and 60% eFG). Doubt anyone matches those highs anytime soon, but Spiff is right that to be considered an efficient scorer generally: you'd hope to see a 5-10% improvement on the numbers Akinjo (and those others) put up.

Nice resource here as well as Sports Reference as Spiff noted: https://hoop-math.com/Arizona2021.php

Solid post. I would say on your comparisons, I wouldn't call any of them particularly inefficient scorers, either. That's why I'd listed him as ok to good in areas. His PER, ast and to% are good, not great, and shooting is ok, but not stellar.

Akinjo's size is, and always will be, an issue in the trees. Being consistent on a floater would help his game, because he likely just won't be great at or around the rim at his size.

In the efficiency question, for a PG, I think assists and turnovers matter heavily. Those are largely above average for Akinjo. Shooting...that's his area to be better.

[Chicat]

I might be alone here, but I also love the idea of being an underdog. We're not used to being this far under the radar. Lloyd is an unproven commodity, for the most part. That means he's hungry. Our players are hungry too. A lot of things would have to break in our favor, but ffs, aren't we due?! We've had some shit luck for a while.

This is like saying that you really love having an amber spiritual aura because when Venus is in retrograde some really groovy things can happen.

[Beachcat97]

I might be alone here, but I also love the idea of being an underdog. We're not used to being this far under the radar. Lloyd is an unproven commodity, for the most part. That means he's hungry. Our players are hungry too. A lot of things would have to break in our favor, but ffs, aren't we due?! We've had some shit luck for a while.

This is like saying that you really love having an amber spiritual aura because when Venus is in retrograde some really groovy things can happen.

I don't get it. But ok? Bear down?

[CatMG]

2) Completely agree with this and I hope we all can rest on this whether we like it or not. Yeah, we took a step back losing Miller. No, we don't know what the long-term future will hold. But this is our guy for the next few seasons and there's no sense in getting worked up, looking backwards, or even judging him right now.

Well, it is unclear if losing Miller was a step back. The program was damaged, and as long as he remained the head coach, the national narrative surrounding the program was going to continue to be negative, ultimately impacting recruiting and credibility. If Lloyd is a bust, then it becomes a step back on some level, but like it or not, Arizona did not have a lot of options after parting ways with its embattled coach.

Lloyd did not take over a good situation, and while he certainly inherited a better roster than Miller did (albeit one that he had to recruit to keep largely intact), the program was arguably in much worse shape than it was when Miller took over. Things were a bit unstable when Miller arrived, but not like now, where the program is facing uncertainty due to potentially serious ramifications from the FBI/NCAA fallout, as well as a couple of years of very negative national exposure.

Tommy may be making some inroads with some recruits, but it will be surprising if he immediately reels in some major players due to Arizona's issues, and frankly his untested reputation as a head coach. If he has a good year next season with a decent roster, it will not be surprising if high level recruits start to recommit to the program knowing he can deliver as a coach.

What are you smoking? We had a roughly top 15 team projected for next year under Miller. Lloyd was able to keep some of the guys, but now we aren't projected in the top 50 or so. Under Miller, we would have had a legitimat shot at making swwet 16 or elite 8 in next year's tourney (and possibly reach FF with a few breaks and bounces). If Lloyd can't get us at least into the top 25 and a tourney bid (a big step down from where Miller likely would have taken us), to me he will have failed his first big test.

And Lloyd took over a program in MUCH better shape than Miller inherited.

Unlike the program Miller inherited, Lloyd inherited one that is waiting for punishment, perhaps severe punishment to be handed down.

[ekat]

2) Completely agree with this and I hope we all can rest on this whether we like it or not. Yeah, we took a step back losing Miller. No, we don't know what the long-term future will hold. But this is our guy for the next few seasons and there's no sense in getting worked up, looking backwards, or even judging him right now.

Well, it is unclear if losing Miller was a step back. The program was damaged, and as long as he remained the head coach, the national narrative surrounding the program was going to continue to be negative, ultimately impacting recruiting and credibility. If Lloyd is a bust, then it becomes a step back on some level, but like it or not, Arizona did not have a lot of options after parting ways with its embattled coach.

Lloyd did not take over a good situation, and while he certainly inherited a better roster than Miller did (albeit one that he had to recruit to keep largely intact), the program was arguably in much worse shape than it was when Miller took over. Things were a bit unstable when Miller arrived, but not like now, where the program is facing uncertainty due to potentially serious ramifications from the FBI/NCAA fallout, as well as a couple of years of very negative national exposure.

Tommy may be making some inroads with some recruits, but it will be surprising if he immediately reels in some major players due to Arizona's issues, and frankly his untested reputation as a head coach. If he has a good year next season with a decent roster, it will not be surprising if high level recruits start to recommit to the program knowing he can deliver as a coach.

What are you smoking? We had a roughly top 15 team projected for next year under Miller. Lloyd was able to keep some of the guys, but now we aren't projected in the top 50 or so. Under Miller, we would have had a legitimat shot at making swwet 16 or elite 8 in next year's tourney (and possibly reach FF with a few breaks and bounces). If Lloyd can't get us at least into the top 25 and a tourney bid (a big step down from where Miller likely would have taken us), to me he will have failed his first big test.

And Lloyd took over a program in MUCH better shape than Miller inherited.

Unlike the program Miller inherited, Lloyd inherited one that is waiting for punishment, perhaps severe punishment to be handed down.

Not to quibble but, I’m going to point out again, Miller inherited a program waiting for punishment from the Cactus Classic debacle. It resulted in a scholarship loss and recruiting limitations, but when he was hired, that was not resolved. Arizona had already self-imposed a scholarship reduction, but the NCAA extended it.

I’m not saying that the situation now is going to be better or worse, but we were in trouble when we hired Miller too, and his first couple recruiting classes had to deal with that. AND, that incident is one of the “aggravating” factors in the current NOA. The reality is, we’re going to lose scholarships and have recruiting restrictions just like Miller had to deal with, but the most severe punishments are the show cause requests that are leveled at Book and Phelps, not Miller, or the program.

[dmjcat]

2) Completely agree with this and I hope we all can rest on this whether we like it or not. Yeah, we took a step back losing Miller. No, we don't know what the long-term future will hold. But this is our guy for the next few seasons and there's no sense in getting worked up, looking backwards, or even judging him right now.

Well, it is unclear if losing Miller was a step back. The program was damaged, and as long as he remained the head coach, the national narrative surrounding the program was going to continue to be negative, ultimately impacting recruiting and credibility. If Lloyd is a bust, then it becomes a step back on some level, but like it or not, Arizona did not have a lot of options after parting ways with its embattled coach.

Lloyd did not take over a good situation, and while he certainly inherited a better roster than Miller did (albeit one that he had to recruit to keep largely intact), the program was arguably in much worse shape than it was when Miller took over. Things were a bit unstable when Miller arrived, but not like now, where the program is facing uncertainty due to potentially serious ramifications from the FBI/NCAA fallout, as well as a couple of years of very negative national exposure.

Tommy may be making some inroads with some recruits, but it will be surprising if he immediately reels in some major players due to Arizona's issues, and frankly his untested reputation as a head coach. If he has a good year next season with a decent roster, it will not be surprising if high level recruits start to recommit to the program knowing he can deliver as a coach.

What are you smoking? We had a roughly top 15 team projected for next year under Miller. Lloyd was able to keep some of the guys, but now we aren't projected in the top 50 or so. Under Miller, we would have had a legitimat shot at making swwet 16 or elite 8 in next year's tourney (and possibly reach FF with a few breaks and bounces). If Lloyd can't get us at least into the top 25 and a tourney bid (a big step down from where Miller likely would have taken us), to me he will have failed his first big test.

And Lloyd took over a program in MUCH better shape than Miller inherited.

Unlike the program Miller inherited, Lloyd inherited one that is waiting for punishment, perhaps severe punishment to be handed down.

Not to quibble but, I’m going to point out again, Miller inherited a program waiting for punishment from the Cactus Classic debacle. It resulted in a scholarship loss and recruiting limitations, but when he was hired, that was not resolved. Arizona had already self-imposed a scholarship reduction, but the NCAA extended it.

I’m not saying that the situation now is going to be better or worse, but we were in trouble when we hired Miller too, and his first couple recruiting classes had to deal with that. AND, that incident is one of the “aggravating” factors in the current NOA. The reality is, we’re going to lose scholarships and have recruiting restrictions just like Miller had to deal with, but the most severe punishments are the show cause requests that are leveled at Book and Phelps, not Miller, or the program.

The situation CTL is inheriting is MUCH, MUCH worse than what Miller had to deal with. Miller has left CTL with a giant turd in the AZ basketball diapers that he is going to have to clean out.

Objectively, we are not going to be able to gauge CTL's recruiting skills until after the current NCAA mess is over.......and that could be several years if severe sanctions are handed down.

[Chicat]

I might be alone here, but I also love the idea of being an underdog. We're not used to being this far under the radar. Lloyd is an unproven commodity, for the most part. That means he's hungry. Our players are hungry too. A lot of things would have to break in our favor, but ffs, aren't we due?! We've had some shit luck for a while.

This is like saying that you really love having an amber spiritual aura because when Venus is in retrograde some really groovy things can happen.

I don't get it. But ok? Bear down?

You will get it when you’ve mastered utilizing your third eye to communicate with your inner underdog child.

[ekat]

Well, it is unclear if losing Miller was a step back. The program was damaged, and as long as he remained the head coach, the national narrative surrounding the program was going to continue to be negative, ultimately impacting recruiting and credibility. If Lloyd is a bust, then it becomes a step back on some level, but like it or not, Arizona did not have a lot of options after parting ways with its embattled coach.

Lloyd did not take over a good situation, and while he certainly inherited a better roster than Miller did (albeit one that he had to recruit to keep largely intact), the program was arguably in much worse shape than it was when Miller took over. Things were a bit unstable when Miller arrived, but not like now, where the program is facing uncertainty due to potentially serious ramifications from the FBI/NCAA fallout, as well as a couple of years of very negative national exposure.

Tommy may be making some inroads with some recruits, but it will be surprising if he immediately reels in some major players due to Arizona's issues, and frankly his untested reputation as a head coach. If he has a good year next season with a decent roster, it will not be surprising if high level recruits start to recommit to the program knowing he can deliver as a coach.

What are you smoking? We had a roughly top 15 team projected for next year under Miller. Lloyd was able to keep some of the guys, but now we aren't projected in the top 50 or so. Under Miller, we would have had a legitimat shot at making swwet 16 or elite 8 in next year's tourney (and possibly reach FF with a few breaks and bounces). If Lloyd can't get us at least into the top 25 and a tourney bid (a big step down from where Miller likely would have taken us), to me he will have failed his first big test.

And Lloyd took over a program in MUCH better shape than Miller inherited.

Unlike the program Miller inherited, Lloyd inherited one that is waiting for punishment, perhaps severe punishment to be handed down.

Not to quibble but, I’m going to point out again, Miller inherited a program waiting for punishment from the Cactus Classic debacle. It resulted in a scholarship loss and recruiting limitations, but when he was hired, that was not resolved. Arizona had already self-imposed a scholarship reduction, but the NCAA extended it.

I’m not saying that the situation now is going to be better or worse, but we were in trouble when we hired Miller too, and his first couple recruiting classes had to deal with that. AND, that incident is one of the “aggravating” factors in the current NOA. The reality is, we’re going to lose scholarships and have recruiting restrictions just like Miller had to deal with, but the most severe punishments are the show cause requests that are leveled at Book and Phelps, not Miller, or the program.

The situation CTL is inheriting is MUCH, MUCH worse than what Miller had to deal with. Miller has left CTL with a giant turd in the AZ basketball diapers that he is going to have to clean out.

Objectively, we are not going to be able to gauge CTL's recruiting skills until after the current NCAA mess is over.......and that could be several years if severe sanctions are handed down.

Objectively, everyone judged Miller’s ability to recruit under self-imposed restrictions that the NCAA further extended. It was a different shit storm then it is now, but it was still a shit storm, and Miller had to deal with the unknown of the NCAA back then, just the same. In some respects, it was worse, because we were on an island. We didn’t have Kansas, USC, Creighton, LSU, Louisville, etc… ahead of us in line for punishment for the EXACT SAME THING.

If you look at the involved schools and the punishments already handed down, you’ll see no one is getting “severe” punishments. And Kansas, Creighton (the plantation) etc are still chugging along recruiting just fine.

The bigger problem with Lloyd’s recruiting right now is Head Coaching record = 0-0. How do you sell a top recruit on coming to play for an unknown?

[Beachcat97]

I might be alone here, but I also love the idea of being an underdog. We're not used to being this far under the radar. Lloyd is an unproven commodity, for the most part. That means he's hungry. Our players are hungry too. A lot of things would have to break in our favor, but ffs, aren't we due?! We've had some shit luck for a while.

This is like saying that you really love having an amber spiritual aura because when Venus is in retrograde some really groovy things can happen.

I don't get it. But ok? Bear down?

You will get it when you’ve mastered utilizing your third eye to communicate with your inner underdog child.

Sounds good. Honestly, man, I'm just ready for this new era to begin, even if we're godawful. Waiting for the other shoe to drop with the scandal has really, really sucked. I'm ready for a fresh start, and I'm happy to cheer for a marginal team, as long as our guys play hard and show improvement from week to week. I think it's a little quixotic to expect Lloyd to win big in year one, regardless of who's on our roster. Even if we'd landed Tyty, I wouldn't be expecting us to finish high in the Pac or even reach the tourney. If Lloyd does either of those things in year one, I'll be deeply impressed.

I just want to look forward to AZ hoops again. It's not a lot to ask.

[dmjcat]

What are you smoking? We had a roughly top 15 team projected for next year under Miller. Lloyd was able to keep some of the guys, but now we aren't projected in the top 50 or so. Under Miller, we would have had a legitimat shot at making swwet 16 or elite 8 in next year's tourney (and possibly reach FF with a few breaks and bounces). If Lloyd can't get us at least into the top 25 and a tourney bid (a big step down from where Miller likely would have taken us), to me he will have failed his first big test.

And Lloyd took over a program in MUCH better shape than Miller inherited.

Unlike the program Miller inherited, Lloyd inherited one that is waiting for punishment, perhaps severe punishment to be handed down.

Not to quibble but, I’m going to point out again, Miller inherited a program waiting for punishment from the Cactus Classic debacle. It resulted in a scholarship loss and recruiting limitations, but when he was hired, that was not resolved. Arizona had already self-imposed a scholarship reduction, but the NCAA extended it.

I’m not saying that the situation now is going to be better or worse, but we were in trouble when we hired Miller too, and his first couple recruiting classes had to deal with that. AND, that incident is one of the “aggravating” factors in the current NOA. The reality is, we’re going to lose scholarships and have recruiting restrictions just like Miller had to deal with, but the most severe punishments are the show cause requests that are leveled at Book and Phelps, not Miller, or the program.

The situation CTL is inheriting is MUCH, MUCH worse than what Miller had to deal with. Miller has left CTL with a giant turd in the AZ basketball diapers that he is going to have to clean out.

Objectively, we are not going to be able to gauge CTL's recruiting skills until after the current NCAA mess is over.......and that could be several years if severe sanctions are handed down.

Objectively, everyone judged Miller’s ability to recruit under self-imposed restrictions that the NCAA further extended. It was a different shit storm then it is now, but it was still a shit storm, and Miller had to deal with the unknown of the NCAA back then, just the same. In some respects, it was worse, because we were on an island. We didn’t have Kansas, USC, Creighton, LSU, Louisville, etc… ahead of us in line for punishment for the EXACT SAME THING.

If you look at the involved schools and the punishments already handed down, you’ll see no one is getting “severe” punishments. And Kansas, Creighton (the plantation) etc are still chugging along recruiting just fine.

The bigger problem with Lloyd’s recruiting right now is Head Coaching record = 0-0. How do you sell a top recruit on coming to play for an unknown?

Agree regarding the 0-0 coaching record but the "Shit Storms" you reference are VASTLY different. AZ has had their name dragged through the mud on a National Basis for 3 straight years and the head coach was let go. Two assistant coaches were let go. The NCAA allegations today are infinitely worse than what Miller was dealing with. CTL is dealing with a SIGNIFICANTLY worse situation than what Miller was handed.

[gronk4heisman]

I might be alone here, but I also love the idea of being an underdog. We're not used to being this far under the radar. Lloyd is an unproven commodity, for the most part. That means he's hungry. Our players are hungry too. A lot of things would have to break in our favor, but ffs, aren't we due?! We've had some shit luck for a while.

This is like saying that you really love having an amber spiritual aura because when Venus is in retrograde some really groovy things can happen.

I don't get it. But ok? Bear down?

You will get it when you’ve mastered utilizing your third eye to communicate with your inner underdog child.

Sounds good. Honestly, man, I'm just ready for this new era to begin, even if we're godawful. Waiting for the other shoe to drop with the scandal has really, really sucked. I'm ready for a fresh start, and I'm happy to cheer for a marginal team, as long as our guys play hard and show improvement from week to week. I think it's a little quixotic to expect Lloyd to win big in year one, regardless of who's on our roster. Even if we'd landed Tyty, I wouldn't be expecting us to finish high in the Pac or even reach the tourney. If Lloyd does either of those things in year one, I'll be deeply impressed.

I just want to look forward to AZ hoops again. It's not a lot to ask.

Based on your low expectations Tommy Lloyd appears to be the perfect coach!

[Beachcat97]

This is like saying that you really love having an amber spiritual aura because when Venus is in retrograde some really groovy things can happen.

I don't get it. But ok? Bear down?

You will get it when you’ve mastered utilizing your third eye to communicate with your inner underdog child.

Sounds good. Honestly, man, I'm just ready for this new era to begin, even if we're godawful. Waiting for the other shoe to drop with the scandal has really, really sucked. I'm ready for a fresh start, and I'm happy to cheer for a marginal team, as long as our guys play hard and show improvement from week to week. I think it's a little quixotic to expect Lloyd to win big in year one, regardless of who's on our roster. Even if we'd landed Tyty, I wouldn't be expecting us to finish high in the Pac or even reach the tourney. If Lloyd does either of those things in year one, I'll be deeply impressed.

I just want to look forward to AZ hoops again. It's not a lot to ask.

Based on your low expectations Tommy Lloyd appears to be the perfect coach!

Gonna take a flier on Tommy. High risk, high reward. Maybe he'll surprise us.

[Spaceman Spiff]

If you look at the involved schools and the punishments already handed down, you’ll see no one is getting “severe” punishments. And Kansas, Creighton (the plantation) etc are still chugging along recruiting just fine.

To me, this is all that needs to be said.

My only add, for dmjcat and people saying Arizona's reputation has been dragged through the mud. For what? We did get a rep for paying players well, and now that's legal.

Getting rid of the guy(s) who allegedly made sure players got money is a detriment in the NIL age. Not that I ever felt bad, but now, we should lean into it wholeheartedly.

You know how people used to talk s*** and call us a Payers Program? That nickname and Twitter handle are available and post NIL change, not a bad idea, IMO.

[Chicat]

I might be alone here, but I also love the idea of being an underdog. We're not used to being this far under the radar. Lloyd is an unproven commodity, for the most part. That means he's hungry. Our players are hungry too. A lot of things would have to break in our favor, but ffs, aren't we due?! We've had some shit luck for a while.

This is like saying that you really love having an amber spiritual aura because when Venus is in retrograde some really groovy things can happen.

I don't get it. But ok? Bear down?

You will get it when you’ve mastered utilizing your third eye to communicate with your inner underdog child.

Sounds good. Honestly, man, I'm just ready for this new era to begin, even if we're godawful. Waiting for the other shoe to drop with the scandal has really, really sucked. I'm ready for a fresh start, and I'm happy to cheer for a marginal team, as long as our guys play hard and show improvement from week to week. I think it's a little quixotic to expect Lloyd to win big in year one, regardless of who's on our roster. Even if we'd landed Tyty, I wouldn't be expecting us to finish high in the Pac or even reach the tourney. If Lloyd does either of those things in year one, I'll be deeply impressed.

I just want to look forward to AZ hoops again. It's not a lot to ask.

What I want is for Arizona’s team and individual players to be talked about during the offseason. I don’t like it that we aren’t showing up in preseason rankings or our players being talked about as some of the best in the conference.

I don’t want to be the plucky underdog. The scrappy group of overachievers who might shock the nation.

That’s some ASU bullshit.

I want to be the big dog. I want everyone saying look out for the Wildcats because they are going to fuck shit up this year.

If Tommy can deliver that, Tommy’s my boy. But I’m not going to look at the fact that we are a total afterthought and try to twist it into it somehow being a good thing.

Once we stop getting talked about it gets a fuckton harder to get recruits to think about putting on an Arizona uniform. And that’s a spiral that is very tough to pull out of.

[YoDeFoe]

Arizona no longer in the running

[UofAlum05]

Man

[YoDeFoe]

Anyone have any indications that we're recruiting any other forwards? The other player I have my eye on besides Obanor is Isiah Small... it looks like we didn't offer him and he'll choose a Texas school this week.

https://247sports.com/college/depaul/Ar ... 167624297/

[Spaceman Spiff]

Arizona no longer in the running

Traditional transfers, especially guys like this, hurt more. You don't need long term relationships like you do with high schoolers.

TBH, I'm missing Aiken, Simpson and Dezonie.

[TheCat]

I might be alone here, but I also love the idea of being an underdog. We're not used to being this far under the radar. Lloyd is an unproven commodity, for the most part. That means he's hungry. Our players are hungry too. A lot of things would have to break in our favor, but ffs, aren't we due?! We've had some shit luck for a while.

This is like saying that you really love having an amber spiritual aura because when Venus is in retrograde some really groovy things can happen.

I don't get it. But ok? Bear down?

You will get it when you’ve mastered utilizing your third eye to communicate with your inner underdog child.

Sounds good. Honestly, man, I'm just ready for this new era to begin, even if we're godawful. Waiting for the other shoe to drop with the scandal has really, really sucked. I'm ready for a fresh start, and I'm happy to cheer for a marginal team, as long as our guys play hard and show improvement from week to week. I think it's a little quixotic to expect Lloyd to win big in year one, regardless of who's on our roster. Even if we'd landed Tyty, I wouldn't be expecting us to finish high in the Pac or even reach the tourney. If Lloyd does either of those things in year one, I'll be deeply impressed.

I just want to look forward to AZ hoops again. It's not a lot to ask.

Well I'm sure you will be happy for a new start if we are below .500. Stupidest thing I ever heard. We fired Miller supposedly to get better not go backwards. I can give Lloyd a few years but if he doesn't show an exciting brand of basketball and promise of better things to come he will not get the recruits to bring us back even to Miller's worst years. The reason recruits came for Miller is he outworked everyone to get them and the recruits believed in a bright future state. If this team does not reach the tourney I will be disappointed and recruits will notice.

[Beachcat97]

What I want is for Arizona’s team and individual players to be talked about during the offseason. I don’t like it that we aren’t showing up in preseason rankings or our players being talked about as some of the best in the conference.

I don’t want to be the plucky underdog. The scrappy group of overachievers who might shock the nation.

That’s some ASU bullshit.

I want to be the big dog. I want everyone saying look out for the Wildcats because they are going to fuck shit up this year.

If Tommy can deliver that, Tommy’s my boy. But I’m not going to look at the fact that we are a total afterthought and try to twist it into it somehow being a good thing.

Once we stop getting talked about it gets a fuckton harder to get recruits to think about putting on an Arizona uniform. And that’s a spiral that is very tough to pull out of.

Chi, honestly...when was the last time AZ was expected to "fuck shit up this year"? I'd say the TJ McConnell years for sure, but beyond that, we usually had stellar recruiting classes, measured expectations and above average results. Was there ever a Miller AZ team that began the season ranked in the top 5? Maybe once in 10 years, I'm guessing.

I hear you about the downward spiral and agree that that's a serious concern. But watching our Ayton team get run off the floor by Buffalo and our Nico/Zeke/Green team get embarrassed by St. John's -- just to name a couple of our more memorable bad losses in recent years -- has given me more humility. My measuring stick for success in Tommy's first year is two questions: is the team appreciably better, on a consistent basis, in March than they were in November, and can we see Lloyd's coaching making a noticeable positive impact on a consistent basis? If the answer is yes to both, he's good in year one. Beyond that, the bar gets higher. Even as a more humble fan, I still expect AZ to be in the hunt for Pac titles and the FF on a consistent basis (there's that phrase again). Lloyd has 3 to 4 years to get us there.

[Chicat]

I have the exact same expectations of Tommy Boy as I did of Miller.

I get it that you want to give Tommy a training wheels season (or 3! ) but we are not Utah. We are not Washington State. We are not fucking ASU.