The 2021-2022 Season Thread

[Lando05]

Those of you who are excited about the upcoming season should post more. I’m looking at the posting histories of those of you who are expressing excitement and one poster hasn’t posted on the BBall forum since April and the other has posted only twice in the same timeframe.

Share your excitement with those of us who are “jaded” and “discontented”. Would love to share in your optimism.

Meanwhile, it still feels like no one really cares that the season starts in 7 weeks. With football in the shitter I’d think you’d all be here talking about hopes, dreams, and expectations.

I'm guessing I'm one of those. I don't post much except in the media form. I love reading here just been super busy with work and my family.

I'm excited to see a coach come in that knows what U of A was at it's peak under Lute and helped build a program that is the best in the West now. Their goal was to emulate Lute. Frankly the way Gonzaga plays stylistically and their system reminds me of the late 90s and early 2000s. The way he is embracing the past and the fresh start he brings, also has me pumped. Also he comes off as the opposite of Miller, I like that.

Did U of A pay players under Miller, hell yes, he just wasn't as good as Coach K or Cal. When he started star chasing players instead on recruiting to his system I noticed the slow decay of his program. Another reason I'm excited is not having to watch Miller try to fit players into his system that had no business being in his system. I stood up for Miller during ESPNgate and still do because thats a bunch of bull shit. He didn't deserve to get fired for that. No evidence and hear say. So I wasn't ok with the way Robbins and his lakey Heeke fired him. But it was time for a change. I personally think Miller peaked and could do no better here. I'm grateful for what he gave us and rebuilt us. I'm excited for us finally ripping the band aide off of a gaping wound, time to heal and move forward. Too bad our football program will probably never recover.

I'm excited for Ben, Kerr, and Terry. Especially Ben,, he has so much potential imo. I'm excited for a new system and coach who isn't so closed off and embraces Tucson and the former players more. Mostly there's nothing I can wait for more than to see a game in person in Tucson. It's been so long, of course hoping things don't get out of control with Covid by then. I'll be making several trips to Tucson to watch games this next season. Beardown, can't wait for basketball season.

[YoDeFoe]

Merkin / CatInTheHat, Re: PG play...

Kerr Kriisa spent (nearly) the whole summer working on the new system and preparing for this season. Lloyd has been effusive in his praise:

“That’s what he’s been his whole life. He’s had to be a point guard who can make 3s, and I think that’s a great thing. Kerr is another guy who we really challenged to grow in certain areas in the offseason and he’s done it. He stayed here for a majority of the summer and really, really worked.

“He’ll be great. He might not be the most athletic guy, but I think he can be very comfortable playing at a fast pace. That’s important for me. He’s comfortable playing fast and we started doing some of our transition offensive stuff (in August) and he looks really good to me doing it. I’m 100% comfortable with him being a point guard for Arizona.”

...and then there are Miller's comments from last season:

“He is a very smart player and a physical player. He competes."

“Offensively he makes his teammates better. He is a willing passer, has great vision. One difference between Kerr and T.J. is Kerr is an overall better shooter than T.J. and T.J. is probably a better overall defensive player. They are cut from the same mold.”

“He’s charismatic and emotional in a very good way,” Miller said. “He is a good teammate and he competes on both ends, defense and offense."

So when we're talking about PG play, don't despair based on what you saw with Kerr being the third string PG, coming in off the bench late in the season for Miller's offense last year. This isn't going to be that.

With a clear role, a season in Tucson and NCAA play under his belt, and operating in a Euro-style ball screen offense - I think we're going to see Kriisa really shine. There's reason to have tempered optimism - last season he hardly attempted a two, he didn't play a ton of minutes, and we're thin in true PG depth behind him this year - but tempered is an adjective, ya know what I mean? It's still optimism.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Kier isn't a point guard, don't believe anyone who tells you he is (including Kier).

Starting:
Kriisa
Dalen
Benn
Azuolas
Koloko

Yeah, but at least Kier's short. That's a start, right?

I'd bet a lot you're right on the starting lineup. I could see Pelle passing Dalen up or maybe Aiken is a revelation and Koloko sees the bench especially vs smaller teams. But I default to your starter projection as 90% likely for the season.

The issue is what it's been since Akinjo left. Kerr is the only one ready to handle and create for others at good efficiency right now. We also lack some firepower in areas like PG and then in the post unless Tubelis has evolved a bit.

Kier, Dalen and Larsson (the worst) were all over 20% on to% which is not a great sign for the perimeter rotation. You say what you want about Akinjo, but ain't no one close to his 31.4 ast% and 13.4. to%. Kerr's 18.9 and 18.6 needs to change.

There's talent, but...it has to be managed well and people have to be better than they were in several areas. Like D as a general rule.

[gronk4heisman]

All your PG hopes rest on a guy with the lowest PER on the team is much much improved and able to play 40 mpg at the point since there is no backup where PG is their natural position. I hope you are right, but I will wait until I see it before I assume we are all good there based on the words of a guy who has never been responsible for a teams actual performance.

[YoDeFoe]

Just another note on PG play, and something I've harped on a ton already but I'll say again: Lloyd's ball screen continuity offense doesn't require a ball dominant PG to create offense for others. It's a system where multiple guys (usually the 1-3) are getting an opportunity to take a ball screen and read the defense - making a play or continuing to move the ball and continue the action.

So we don't need to be thinking about you know, point forwards or strong lead guards or who can back-up Kriisa - we need the ball to get up the court quickly and make plays in transition, and then the 1-3 can become interchangeable once when we get into our half court offense.

I think between Kriisa, Terry, Pelle, and Aiken we'll see some good playmaking out of that action. Benn and Justin (and Shane to the extent he plays) I'm hopeful for in that regard. But its going to allow guys to have the opportunity to create and that should be really rewarding for the team's chemistry and for success on the floor.

And we really benefit from having guys with size who can see over the defense and put pressure on the rim by denying the ball screen and going baseline or cutting outside of the ball screen action for a dish and dunk.

[Spaceman Spiff]

And. To everyone bashing Tommy for recruiting…it’s been 5 months and he was jumping into all these recruiting battles late.

Give him time. He will find the right guys.

I can't agree here. Arizona is a top ten program and he's bringing home 3.6 million a year.

You produce or you don't. He has not produced yet. He will or he won't in the future, but I'm not much into hopes and belief or excuses for lack of production. You produce or you don't.

We didn't fire a coach who landed a top ten recruiting class in 9 of the last 10 years (except for the year FBI/ESPN gutted our class to #22) for me to be too karmically holistic about "you only fail if you fail to learn a lesson" when we come in second on Tyty Washington or Arthur Kaluma.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I just think it's interesting how this whole ordeal has brought to light a breaking point among some fans. AZ hoops is the one team I'm ride or die with come hell or high water. We could hire Josh Pastner...I'm still pumped to see our guys play. We could hire one-eyed Dick Vitale...I'd still find an angle to get excited about.

My love and enthusiasm for AZ hoops are inviolable. But not everyone shares that sentiment, I've learned today.

I'm not intentionally watching any Arizona Athletics until Heeke and BobRob are done. Said that for a while, mean it.

I'm already benefitting with how football season's been. Full disclosure, I did accidentally see some of the BYU football game and it did not whet my appetite for more.

[YoDeFoe]

Yeah Spiff to your concerns: totally valid. I'm hopeful (there's that word again) but the rearview mirror doesn't look great in regards to TO% and guys being able to do what we're expecting them to do.

Now, why am I hopeful.

Kerr - held out most of the year by the NCAA, inserted for the last nine games - the toughest stretch of the season with 6 of 9 being KenPom "A" rated games, and he was the third string PG playing behind two very experienced guards. Tough for a kid from Estonia. He's a more experienced player with a defined role and a system that is more familiar to him.

Dalen - word is that he's made a big leap and I think that playing with the ball in his hands more will benefit his rhythm and confidence.

Pelle - another Euro kid who was inserted mid-season, this time at Utah to replace their injured PG. He's thoroughly a two-guard and I think it's unwise to judge his ability to efficiently create plays as the "oh hey guess what, you're the starting PG for a Pac-12 team now good luck" guy. Still had a positive assist to TO ration, ought to be in a more scoring + facilitating role this year.

Kim - phenomenal PnR ball handler numbers, as well as scoring numbers off of screens and cuts. Roughly 95th percentile (via Synergy Sports) on all of that, which is exactly what we're looking for out of a wing in this offense.

Kier - 1:1 A:TO throughout his career, poor PnR ball handling stats so I'm not bullish on his playmaking here but his three point shooting will make the rest of the team's life easier.

Benn I think will do most of his damage as a scorer. His transition game, driving, cutting, and three point shooting should be our A1 offense (along with rim runs and early posts and rolls from Tubelis and hey, hopefully Koloko).

We're talking about a lot of guys (Kerr, Dalen, Pelle, Benn, Azuolas) who can take a sophomore leap and the feedback is that we should expect to see that leap in production and efficiency on the court (well, except for Pelle who has been injured for summer practices).

[dovecanyoncat]

I personally could care less about how the whole hiring and firing, I am just not as excited for this season because everything around Tommy is boring. If we improve and win though, all of that means nothing in the end.

I just so thoroughly disagree

Y'all know I'm excited about Lloyd and the offensive style he'll bring. From all that I've read and heard about him (and it's been a ton), the man is obsessive about basketball and specifically about picking up new ways to improve his players and refine or evolve his system. I love it.

There was that long form article in the Athletic about the Gonzaga guys below Few - Lloyd, Gentry, Jakus - here it is: https://theathletic.com/2459932/2021/03 ... n-spokane/

Stuff like this: “Every day at Gonzaga is like an education in basketball,” [Gentry] says. “Just being around great coaches. We’re always talking basketball. It’s kind of this really cool melting pot of different basketball philosophies.”

It's inspiring, man. It gives me hope. And I'll be damned if I'm not honest that I run on hope.

I think like Choo, I was a Miller defender but I was running low on steam. I don't want to go down the hypotheticals and what we should have done or what could have been road (I really don't). What's important to me now is that I think we're all going to be impressed with Lloyd's creativity and willingness to evolve. I think we're going to see a team that has great offensive flow and executes on that end really well. The beautiful game kind of stuff on the floor of McKale.

I'm chomping at the bit y'all. I'm excited as all hell.

You basically encapsulate my basis for optimism, and I'm a class-half-empty kind of guy. I really liked Miller and his culture in totality, but I didn't find his floor system inspiring in and of itself. I also agree about not wanting rework the past anymore because we/he got screwed in so many instances. I'm optimistic for a new frame.

But I'm a UofA fan and even outside of that I don't get to get what I want. That's rule #1. ToLlo may just break the spell but what do I know?

[Chicat]

I just think it's interesting how this whole ordeal has brought to light a breaking point among some fans. AZ hoops is the one team I'm ride or die with come hell or high water. We could hire Josh Pastner...I'm still pumped to see our guys play. We could hire one-eyed Dick Vitale...I'd still find an angle to get excited about.

My love and enthusiasm for AZ hoops are inviolable. But not everyone shares that sentiment, I've learned today.

Oh boy, the good fan/bad fan debate. What joy.

I love Arizona Basketball. I don’t always like it though.

[YoDeFoe]

But I'm a UofA fan and even outside of that I don't get to get what I want. That's rule #1. ToLlo may just break the spell but what do I know?

Rule #1, ain’t that the truth.

But also: ToLlo is a fantastic nickname. (Also: can we do a Spanish pronunciation of Lloyd? I think we should )

[YoDeFoe]

Maybe I'm just so enamored by what I watched last season with Gonzaga that I think maybe, just maybe, it'll rub off here.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/Cdzod_YHSRw

Edit: I don't think I'll ever remember how to embed youtube links here

[dovecanyoncat]

But I'm a UofA fan and even outside of that I don't get to get what I want. That's rule #1. ToLlo may just break the spell but what do I know?

Rule #1, ain’t that the truth.

But also: ToLlo is a fantastic nickname. (Also: can we do a Spanish pronunciation of Lloyd? I think we should )

So we pronounce it ToYo? I'm down.

[TheCat]

My hope is that our new Assistant coach from North Carolina brings a detailed knowledge of Roy's secondary break and that we can score at least two more easy buckets a game because of it. Style of play will be huge in getting recruits interested in coming here again.

[Chicat]

Edit: I don't think I'll ever remember how to embed youtube links here

I think you still need to do it from a desktop/laptop. Mobile YouTube doesn’t provide an embed option.

[UAEebs86]

Edit: I don't think I'll ever remember how to embed youtube links here

I think you still need to do it from a desktop/laptop. Mobile YouTube doesn’t provide an embed option.

A workaround would be to use the desktop site option in your mobile browser if it has one (the Samsung browser I use does). Then the embed code shows up when you click share on YouTube.

[Postmaster]

I think the Chin Bra’s decision to cancel the post season really put a nail in the coffin on my enthusiasm.
The way CSM was fired was the dirt on top.

[ChooChooCat]

I just think it's interesting how this whole ordeal has brought to light a breaking point among some fans. AZ hoops is the one team I'm ride or die with come hell or high water. We could hire Josh Pastner...I'm still pumped to see our guys play. We could hire one-eyed Dick Vitale...I'd still find an angle to get excited about.

My love and enthusiasm for AZ hoops are inviolable. But not everyone shares that sentiment, I've learned today.

Oh boy, the good fan/bad fan debate. What joy.

I love Arizona Basketball. I don’t always like it though.

You bad fan you Chi.

Honestly I didn’t like Arizona basketball for the past 4 years or so. Probably the only reason I’m excited to see the Lloyd era. Maybe I’m let down, maybe not. YoDeFoe is my current spirit animal though.

[gronk4heisman]

Speaking for myself

Miller gave lots of hope with his roster load up in the offseason, and then disappointed with actual results and style

Lloyd has gave no hope in roster composition to this point (due to going after very few guys when have clear holes and whiffing on those he did), hopefully actual results and style exceed my expectations which are admittedly pretty low considering we have two All conference caliber players returning.

[Postmaster]

Has Lloyd picked up any high school player that wasn’t already coming here?

[UAEebs86]

Has Lloyd picked up any high school player that wasn’t already coming here?

Dylan Anderson

[Spaceman Spiff]

Has Lloyd picked up any high school player that wasn’t already coming here?

Dylan Anderson

Yes and no. He had a top two of Arizona (recruited by Jack Murphy) and Gonzaga (recruited by Tommy Lloyd) at the point Lloyd was hired here.

So, he wasn't technically committed here, but we merged his top two recruiting coaches at a school that was already in his top two. If I remember right, he committed within 3 days of Lloyd's hire, so it was pretty obvious it was a stars aligning moment that required no further discussion.

I'm not going to hate on Lloyd for it because a W is a W, but Anderson was a set of circumstances we won't ever see again.

[Postmaster]

He’s coming next season, right?

[Chicat]

Yeah, gonna have to mark it as “still waiting” as far as Lloyd’s first true recruiting coup for Arizona. Obviously he re-recruited a couple of current UA players and has gotten some transfers during what was an unprecedented transfer atmosphere, but we are still waiting on Tommy to go head to head against a bunch of other schools for a high school stud and land that whale.

[Beachcat97]

https://www.three-man-weave.com/3mw/pac-12-2022-preview

Now there's a season outlook I can get behind!

[azgreg]

[ChooChooCat]

Yeah, gonna have to mark it as “still waiting” as far as Lloyd’s first true recruiting coup for Arizona. Obviously he re-recruited a couple of current UA players and has gotten some transfers during what was an unprecedented transfer atmosphere, but we are still waiting on Tommy to go head to head against a bunch of other schools for a high school stud and land that whale.

Jaden Bradley is deciding very soon.

[Spaceman Spiff]

He’s coming next season, right?

Yeah. So far Anderson's the only confirmed '22 guy we have. He dropped a little in the most recent 247 rankings.

I'd suspect he's a decent replacement when Tubelis likely leaves, but he won't be as good as I'd expect Tubelis to be this coming year.

Bradley would be the first significant contested W for Lloyd in recruiting if that happens.

Edit: I don't think Bradley is Chicat's whale, but he's a solid prospect that you feel good about landing.

[ChooChooCat]

If you guys think Anderson, Bradley, and Chandler are the only guys we’re recruiting well…..you should know better.

[Beachcat97]

Jaden Bradley is a top 10 player in his class; Chandler is somewhere in the 25-35 range. Getting even one of those guys would be big. Getting both would serve notice that Tommy came to play.

[RawleArenas]

Ok, here's my rant. I think Lloyd is a nice guy and looks good on paper, but needs a little more time in the oven to prove that he's 'the guy.' Too many people were ready to celebrate the hire like he was some kind of basketball wunderkind and that he would rebuild the program when the program was already built. The real issue was that even before the FBI situation, people didn't like Miller and took pokes at him all the time leading up to the FBI debacle. I remember distinctly when we went on a 10 plus game winning streak in 2016-17 and fans were saying that Miller should be blowing out teams and that we weren't dominant enough. It was then that I realized that the games weren't the problem, Miller was.

The ingredients to rocky road ice cream make it fundamentally polarizing to a large group of people. It doesn't mean its a bad flavor even if Lute was butter pecan. Millions of people like rocky road just fine. I watched Miller for years before the scandal and was very impressed about how he approached coaching, built his rosters and understood the hidden nuances of coaching a blue blood. There was a reason he turned down the job because he understands people, unreasonable expectations and pressure. But in spite of this ,he came very close to exceeding our expectations provided the ball bounced a little differently in the tournament. Lute always had a backup stud at guard when he made his runs, Miller had none. I will go as far as to say that if you put Lute's B guards on our elite 8 teams, those teams are national championship contenders. For example, put Reeves with Momo or NFOY Gardner with TJ, those teams start to look extremely dangerous.

I have problems with Lloyd and let me explain. No matter how promising someone looks on paper you never give a prominent leadership position to someone who has never lead before. It's a recipe for disaster. It's the reason why we get quotes from Lloyd like 'recruiting at Arizona is difficult.' No, recruiting at UC Irvine is difficult, recruiting at New Mexico State is difficult, Arizona is a completely different beast. Even Miller basically said that the moment that he stepped on campus that the cute girls in class finally started to talk to him (metaphorically speaking). Having coached at multiple Power 6 six schools Miller understood how hard recruiting was, especially when you don't have the name recognition. It's the reason why it took Mark Few 20 years to get his first true top 10 stud player (Suggs) and it took Miller two minutes (DWill). Recruiting at Arizona is not difficult, he just sucks right now and doesn't have the experience or perspective to understand what Arizona really is.

You can't use the scandal as an excuse for poor recruiting results. Oklahama State got Cade Cunningham (and have a really good team returning this year without him) Auburn went to a Final Four and are still recruiting well, USC went to the elite 8 and had back to back top ten picks, Will Wade and LSU are operating business as usual. Everytime Lloyd walks into McKale and the locker rooms he has a pantheon of greatness staring back at him from NBA All Stars, to National Player of the Years to NBA champions to college All Americans. The list is endless. We have two former players coaching NBA teams and two others coaching G League teams and have former players littered as assistants all over the league. If you can't sell that, I have some very serious concerns about your ability to lead the program. Look at Barry Hinson sell Oklahoma State on youtube as he gives a tour of the basketball facility, THAT'S how you sell a program. OSU has a third of the success and tradition that we have and they got Cunningham and were in the top five for Shaedon Sharpe and still had the scandal situation.

When we hired Lloyd I watched local news to see what we were getting into. They asked him about recruiting and he asked the reporter was he impressed with Jalen Suggs. Suggs is the equivalent to Jerryd Bayless (top 10 guard, 11th overall), except that Bayless didn't have the super supporting cast that Suggs had. And as much as I appreciate Bayless and what he did for UofA, no one even mentions him on this blog or any other board. That's how strong the tradition is here at Arizona. We expect greatness at every recruiting cycle. But when you're the Fresh Prince of Spokane who is never challenged by fans or criticized by the media, you might think you're moving mountains when you haven't even been tested yet. Suggs and Holmgren are great gets and are monsters for a mid major school, but they are just another batch of good players here at Arizona. Because Lloyd has never led before, he doesn't get this. He hasn't put in the work to struggle in recruiting to understand how to leverage the Arizona name. Yes, Robinson is good to have on your staff, but in my opinion he has too much ground to cover to be an asset to the athletics program.

[gronk4heisman]

If you guys think Anderson, Bradley, and Chandler are the only guys we’re recruiting well…..you should know better.

I do not know better apparently and not sure why I should, that is Tommy's way from what I have seen with some Euro guys he is keeping tabs on as well I am sure.

[Chicat]

Edit: I don't think Bradley is Chicat's whale, but he's a solid prospect that you feel good about landing.

I’d take just about anyone right now that gives us some recruiting momentum and who we could point to as having interest from other really good programs.

Any signs of life at all are welcome.

[dovecanyoncat]

"the Fresh Prince of Spokane"

Now that's funny.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Jaden Bradley is a top 10 player in his class; Chandler is somewhere in the 25-35 range. Getting even one of those guys would be big. Getting both would serve notice that Tommy came to play.

Bradley isn't top ten and frankly, I agree with that in both positive and negative ways. He's #18 composite on 247 and I don't see rankings having him top ten.

He's that way because he lacks elite physical upside and isn't a Steph/Trae type bomber. That makes him not a top 10 guy, but also less likely to be a OAD, which is a significant asset if you're Lloyd and building a program. I tend to think around 20-25 is right for Bradley, and he's a profile of a guy much closer to a Jalen Brunson than Trae, Dennis Smith Jr. or Nico Mannion.

I think you're a little high on Chandler too, but he's another guy who at around #40 has solid multiyear guy without the elite upside to make him a OAD written all over.

[ChooChooCat]

If you guys think Anderson, Bradley, and Chandler are the only guys we’re recruiting well…..you should know better.

I do not know better apparently and not sure why I should, that is Tommy's way from what I have seen with some Euro guys he is keeping tabs on as well I am sure.

He’s more than keeping tabs…

[Jefe]

He’s coming next season, right?

Saw Dylan 2 weeks ago at the first tailgate with his parents.

Last tailgate I ran into Kriisa, Koloko, Mathurin, Tubelis and Larsson. Koloko and Tubelis are absolute monsters, I've never felt so short in my life next to kids half my age. Then Mathurin grabbed the mic for a Backstreet Boys karaoke performance.

[ChooChooCat]

Jaden Bradley is a top 10 player in his class; Chandler is somewhere in the 25-35 range. Getting even one of those guys would be big. Getting both would serve notice that Tommy came to play.

Bradley isn't top ten and frankly, I agree with that in both positive and negative ways. He's #18 composite on 247 and I don't see rankings having him top ten.

He's that way because he lacks elite physical upside and isn't a Steph/Trae type bomber. That makes him not a top 10 guy, but also less likely to be a OAD, which is a significant asset if you're Lloyd and building a program. I tend to think around 20-25 is right for Bradley, and he's a profile of a guy much closer to a Jalen Brunson than Trae, Dennis Smith Jr. or Nico Mannion.

I think you're a little high on Chandler too, but he's another guy who at around #40 has solid multiyear guy without the elite upside to make him a OAD written all over.

Isn’t multiple year guys that are talented what we wanted? Jaden Bradley is literally the definition of that.

Guys get used to the idea of keeping all the players we recruit and actually developing them. Obviously maybe some transfers will still occur, but a guy like Adama Bal would’ve been recruited, not played, been recruited over, and forced to transfer in the Sean Miller era. In this regime Bal was taken, will be developed, and will not be recruited over. The reason we’re not pursuing 363936 5 star wing players outside of a guy who wouldn’t really be a 2022 recruit cause he’s going on a mission (Chandler), is we have young wings on roster that this staff intends to actually put time and development into. It’s a crazy concept for Arizona fans since Miller got here, I know, but recruiting will be different this entire regime, so adjust accordingly. One and dones will still occur when Lloyd gets it rolling, but they’ll be complementary to the roster and not the complete focus.

[Beachcat97]

Jaden Bradley is a top 10 player in his class; Chandler is somewhere in the 25-35 range. Getting even one of those guys would be big. Getting both would serve notice that Tommy came to play.

Bradley isn't top ten and frankly, I agree with that in both positive and negative ways. He's #18 composite on 247 and I don't see rankings having him top ten.

#8

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/bask ... en-bradley

[gronk4heisman]

So you think Bal is going to contribute in the next two years? I do not from what I have seen.

[ChooChooCat]

So you think Bal is going to contribute in the next two years? I do not from what I have seen.

I believe the staff intends to make him a contributor in the next two years.

What have you seen Gronk?

[Spaceman Spiff]

Ok, here's my rant. I think Lloyd is a nice guy and looks good on paper, but needs a little more time in the oven to prove that he's 'the guy.' Too many people were ready to celebrate the hire like he was some kind of basketball wunderkind and that he would rebuild the program when the program was already built.

Nice post. I'll quote the part I agree with the most.

Lloyd may succeed, but I don't think you can see him as a normal, natural option for a top ten program. It's the point of when people were citing to Roy Williams taking over at Kansas. We fished in a pond that hasn't been fished in for 30 years for this hire.

100% on your points on Miller. We were a top ten team for a significant part of the season every year from 2012 until the FBI hit and had 3 teams of National Championship quality during that period. I fully believe fans forgot how rare and hard that is.

Post FBI is debatable about causation, etc., as tp why we only got into the teens in 19-20 and were outside that in the other two years. I will say, my money would be on the next few years being a strong reminder of how unusually successful Miller's 2012-18 run was in that I don't see us matching it this coming year or the year after.

[azgreg]

Jaden Bradley is a top 10 player in his class; Chandler is somewhere in the 25-35 range. Getting even one of those guys would be big. Getting both would serve notice that Tommy came to play.

Bradley isn't top ten and frankly, I agree with that in both positive and negative ways. He's #18 composite on 247 and I don't see rankings having him top ten.

#8

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/bask ... en-bradley

247 has him 18th.

https://247sports.com/Player/Jaden-Bradley-46057179/

[Beachcat97]

Think the bottom line is that Bradley is a high level recruit that we need to land.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Isn’t multiple year guys that are talented what we wanted? Jaden Bradley is literally the definition of that.

Guys get used to the idea of keeping all the players we recruit and actually developing them. Obviously maybe some transfers will still occur, but a guy like Adama Bal would’ve been recruited, not played, been recruited over, and forced to transfer in the Sean Miller era. In this regime Bal was taken, will be developed, and will not be recruited over. The reason we’re not pursuing 363936 5 star wing players outside of a guy who wouldn’t really be a 2022 recruit cause he’s going on a mission (Chandler), is we have young wings on roster that this staff intends to actually put time and development into. It’s a crazy concept for Arizona fans since Miller got here, I know, but recruiting will be different this entire regime, so adjust accordingly. One and dones will still occur when Lloyd gets it rolling, but they’ll be complementary to the roster and not the complete focus.

Well, your first point is why I said "in both positive and negative ways." Not having that elite ability lowers the initial ability, but multiyear guys can make up for it.

My devil's advocate to the second point:

1. That perspective assumes players stay for development. Player movement is at an all time high, and sometimes it's driven by homesickness, etc. The no sit transfer should only make it more movement. The upside of more targets is you have options if someone just decides he doesn't like it here. If Bal gets homesick, how many backup options do we have?

2. The short term effect of fewer targets is likely to be that we're not contending for a bit. In 22-23, I think Mathurin and Tubelis leave. If we got Anderson, Bradley and Chandler, it would be a solid developmental class...but, Anderson is an immediate downgrade vs Tubelis and anyone stepping into Mathurin's role (Chandler, Larsson, Terry, Nowell, Bal) will be a downgrade. Bradley in place of Kier is an upgrade. But bottom line, we are probably looking at another year of maybe, maybe not a top 25 team with that roster composition.

3. To a certain extent, this presumes success. Looking to Gonzaga's past, it wasn't until they began connecting on big time prospects that they achieved something arguably in excess of Miller's results. Their FF year in 16-17 had 2 guys who only spent a single year in Spokane, and Suggs was obviously a OAD last year (and my favorite player in CBB). Maybe it will come, but I don't see anything close to Suggs on our list.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Jaden Bradley is a top 10 player in his class; Chandler is somewhere in the 25-35 range. Getting even one of those guys would be big. Getting both would serve notice that Tommy came to play.

Bradley isn't top ten and frankly, I agree with that in both positive and negative ways. He's #18 composite on 247 and I don't see rankings having him top ten.

#8

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/bask ... en-bradley

My bad on missing ESPN...I'll change to that he's #8 on ESPN, 18 on 247, 25 on Rivals and the composite has him well outside top ten.

Side note on ESPN, I think they have Bradley and Chandler too high and Anderson extremely low at #84.

[ChooChooCat]

Ok, here's my rant. I think Lloyd is a nice guy and looks good on paper, but needs a little more time in the oven to prove that he's 'the guy.' Too many people were ready to celebrate the hire like he was some kind of basketball wunderkind and that he would rebuild the program when the program was already built.

Nice post. I'll quote the part I agree with the most.

Lloyd may succeed, but I don't think you can see him as a normal, natural option for a top ten program. It's the point of when people were citing to Roy Williams taking over at Kansas. We fished in a pond that hasn't been fished in for 30 years for this hire.

100% on your points on Miller. We were a top ten team for a significant part of the season every year from 2012 until the FBI hit and had 3 teams of National Championship quality during that period. I fully believe fans forgot how rare and hard that is.

Post FBI is debatable about causation, etc., as tp why we only got into the teens in 19-20 and were outside that in the other two years. I will say, my money would be on the next few years being a strong reminder of how unusually successful Miller's 2012-18 run was in that I don't see us matching it this coming year or the year after.

You say this in the same offseason that UNC and Duke bumped up career assistants as their head coaches.

[YoDeFoe]

Bradley isn't top ten and frankly, I agree with that in both positive and negative ways. He's #18 composite on 247 and I don't see rankings having him top ten.

He's that way because he lacks elite physical upside and isn't a Steph/Trae type bomber. That makes him not a top 10 guy, but also less likely to be a OAD, which is a significant asset if you're Lloyd and building a program. I tend to think around 20-25 is right for Bradley, and he's a profile of a guy much closer to a Jalen Brunson than Trae, Dennis Smith Jr. or Nico Mannion.

I think you're a little high on Chandler too, but he's another guy who at around #40 has solid multiyear guy without the elite upside to make him a OAD written all over.

One of the reasons that a potential Bradley commitment has me so excited is because I hope he's a two or three year PG for us, and my God the damage that kid could do with just a year in this system under his belt. Bradley has great size and strength and composure, he's able to punish defenses off of screens and in transition. Just an ideal lead guard for Lloyd and I think he'd play well alongside Kriisa next season similar to Suggs and Nembhard this past year at Gonzaga.

To Choo's point: yeah, this is exactly what I wanted. Bring in guys and focus on developing them. The last time we had a PG start two straight seasons was TJ in 2013-15.

[ChooChooCat]

Isn’t multiple year guys that are talented what we wanted? Jaden Bradley is literally the definition of that.

Guys get used to the idea of keeping all the players we recruit and actually developing them. Obviously maybe some transfers will still occur, but a guy like Adama Bal would’ve been recruited, not played, been recruited over, and forced to transfer in the Sean Miller era. In this regime Bal was taken, will be developed, and will not be recruited over. The reason we’re not pursuing 363936 5 star wing players outside of a guy who wouldn’t really be a 2022 recruit cause he’s going on a mission (Chandler), is we have young wings on roster that this staff intends to actually put time and development into. It’s a crazy concept for Arizona fans since Miller got here, I know, but recruiting will be different this entire regime, so adjust accordingly. One and dones will still occur when Lloyd gets it rolling, but they’ll be complementary to the roster and not the complete focus.

Well, your first point is why I said "in both positive and negative ways." Not having that elite ability lowers the initial ability, but multiyear guys can make up for it.

My devil's advocate to the second point:

1. That perspective assumes players stay for development. Player movement is at an all time high, and sometimes it's driven by homesickness, etc. The no sit transfer should only make it more movement. The upside of more targets is you have options if someone just decides he doesn't like it here. If Bal gets homesick, how many backup options do we have?

2. The short term effect of fewer targets is likely to be that we're not contending for a bit. In 22-23, I think Mathurin and Tubelis leave. If we got Anderson, Bradley and Chandler, it would be a solid developmental class...but, Anderson is an immediate downgrade vs Tubelis and anyone stepping into Mathurin's role (Chandler, Larsson, Terry, Nowell, Bal) will be a downgrade. Bradley in place of Kier is an upgrade. But bottom line, we are probably looking at another year of maybe, maybe not a top 25 team with that roster composition.

3. To a certain extent, this presumes success. Looking to Gonzaga's past, it wasn't until they began connecting on big time prospects that they achieved something arguably in excess of Miller's results. Their FF year in 16-17 had 2 guys who only spent a single year in Spokane, and Suggs was obviously a OAD last year (and my favorite player in CBB). Maybe it will come, but I don't see anything close to Suggs on our list.

1. There’s this thing called “recruiting for fit.” That includes also personality and buying in. If Bal gets homesick there’s a portal for that now or International once again.

2. You have no idea who will be considered a downgrade by that season. You’re currently projecting without a season of reference. Also no one is saying Anderson would be Tubelis’s immediate replacement either.

3. Zach Collins (HS) and Jordan Matthews (Grad transfer) were the only first year players on that roster. Are you going to act as if the rest of the roster didn’t matter and they were the primary reason for that great run? There’s no Suggs in the 2022 class for us, well that you’re aware of….2023 though….

[gronk4heisman]

So you think Bal is going to contribute in the next two years? I do not from what I have seen.

I believe the staff intends to make him a contributor in the next two years.

What have you seen Gronk?

I have watched several game videos and from what I have watched he seems further away than Joel Ayayi was when he came over. Joel Ayayi redshirted his first year, didn't contribute his second year but was great after that. Are they expecting him to contribute next year because Ben and Keir will both be gone next year.