The 2022-2023 Season Thread

[UAEebs86]

Jacob Grandison (Illinois) entered the portal today. 6’6 G/F who shot 47% overall and 41% from 3pt. He’s 24 years old, but I don’t know if he is a grad transfer or not. He’s from Oakland, so maybe he’d be interested in coming out west.

Unless he's on the 7 year plan wouldn't he be a grad transfer?

Just looked him up…. He’s listed as a senior (Super Duper Senior?). This would be his 5th season of play, plus he sat out a season after transferring to Illinois from Holy Cross.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Jacob Grandison (Illinois) entered the portal today. 6’6 G/F who shot 47% overall and 41% from 3pt. He’s 24 years old, but I don’t know if he is a grad transfer or not. He’s from Oakland, so maybe he’d be interested in coming out west.

Unless he's on the 7 year plan wouldn't he be a grad transfer?

Just looked him up…. He’s listed as a senior (Super Duper Senior?). This would be his 5th season of play, plus he sat out a season after transferring to Illinois from Holy Cross.

Can I just say I think that the current rules means people have infinite eligibility? No one ever exhausts eligibility these days.

[ChooChooCat]

Grandison is from the west coast as well. I think he’s someone to look at if we miss on Courtney Ramey.

[PHXCATS]

Why are people crying about the off-season?

College sports are transactional and are supposed to prepare the athletes for life. No one owes the players shit and the players don't owe the fans or boosters shit

[YoDeFoe]

Guys in the portal now who are worth a damn:

Ramey
Brooks
Malachi Smith
AJ Green
Pete Nance
Isaiah Mosely
Mouhamed Gueye

I’m sure there will be a few more as guys shift and grad transfer pop in - am I missing anyone right now?

[RaisingArizona]

Guys in the portal now who are worth a damn:

Ramey
Brooks
Malachi Smith
AJ Green
Pete Nance
Isaiah Mosely
Mouhamed Gueye

I’m sure there will be a few more as guys shift and grad transfer pop in - am I missing anyone right now?

Malachi Smith would be a home run. I guess Gonzaga seems like the favorite.

[goslingswagg]

Grandison is from the west coast as well. I think he’s someone to look at if we miss on Courtney Ramey.

why not both? pretty clear we need both a guard and a wing, and Grandison is a wing.

[UAEebs86]

Guys in the portal now who are worth a damn:

Ramey
Brooks
Malachi Smith
AJ Green
Pete Nance
Isaiah Mosely
Mouhamed Gueye

I’m sure there will be a few more as guys shift and grad transfer pop in - am I missing anyone right now?

The Illinois kid Grandison

[ChooChooCat]

Grandison is from the west coast as well. I think he’s someone to look at if we miss on Courtney Ramey.

why not both? pretty clear we need both a guard and a wing, and Grandison is a wing.

Convince one to come off the bench.

[goslingswagg]

Grandison is from the west coast as well. I think he’s someone to look at if we miss on Courtney Ramey.

why not both? pretty clear we need both a guard and a wing, and Grandison is a wing.

Convince one to come off the bench.

yeah, fair enough. any chance we can convince Pelle to be 6th man again? he would still play 25-30 mins, but would allow both of those guys to come in and start. We clearly have the minutes available for both of them, just don't have the starting positions if Kerr and Pelle are locked in.

[ChooChooCat]

Grandison is from the west coast as well. I think he’s someone to look at if we miss on Courtney Ramey.

why not both? pretty clear we need both a guard and a wing, and Grandison is a wing.

Convince one to come off the bench.

yeah, fair enough. any chance we can convince Pelle to be 6th man again? he would still play 25-30 mins, but would allow both of those guys to come in and start. We clearly have the minutes available for both of them, just don't have the starting positions if Kerr and Pelle are locked in.

I don’t know, but I doubt it. Every move made has been with the thought that Pelle is starting. I don’t see any reason to change that now.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Grandison is from the west coast as well. I think he’s someone to look at if we miss on Courtney Ramey.

why not both? pretty clear we need both a guard and a wing, and Grandison is a wing.

Convince one to come off the bench.

yeah, fair enough. any chance we can convince Pelle to be 6th man again? he would still play 25-30 mins, but would allow both of those guys to come in and start. We clearly have the minutes available for both of them, just don't have the starting positions if Kerr and Pelle are locked in.

Kerr and Ramey with Pelle at the 3 is stronger. Grandison is fine, but metric wise, I'd put Pelle above him in D and versatility.

We'd sort of be starting both PG's, but you hope Bal develops enough that you just have to stagger minutes a little to work the rotation so you have a PG out there.

[goslingswagg]

Grandison is from the west coast as well. I think he’s someone to look at if we miss on Courtney Ramey.

why not both? pretty clear we need both a guard and a wing, and Grandison is a wing.

Convince one to come off the bench.

yeah, fair enough. any chance we can convince Pelle to be 6th man again? he would still play 25-30 mins, but would allow both of those guys to come in and start. We clearly have the minutes available for both of them, just don't have the starting positions if Kerr and Pelle are locked in.

Kerr and Ramey with Pelle at the 3 is stronger. Grandison is fine, but metric wise, I'd put Pelle above him in D and versatility.

We'd sort of be starting both PG's, but you hope Bal develops enough that you just have to stagger minutes a little to work the rotation so you have a PG out there.

agreed, I'm just coming from the angle that I don't give a shit who is starting. I think Pelle is a better player than Grandison, but if it helps us land two high level transfers to say that both the 2 and the 3 starting spots are open, then so be it. But it sounds like that is not likely regardless.

[UAEebs86]

Meanwhile in Spokane...

[Beachcat97]

Timme's not NBA-caliber. Not big or athletic enough. His decision makes a lot of sense.

Jules Bernard is leaving ucla, which is weird because he's not very good.

[84Cat]

Julian Strawther is back also for the Zags

[Beachcat97]

Julian Strawther is back also for the Zags

Either Zaga or UNC has to be preseason #1.

[Dave]

I am surprised Chet’s not coming back. Gonzaga’s ability to retain players is incomprehensible.

[Beachcat97]

I am surprised Chet’s not coming back. Gonzaga’s ability to retain players is incomprehensible.

Chet’s going to wish he had. Not at all convinced of his NBA potential.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I am surprised Chet’s not coming back. Gonzaga’s ability to retain players is incomprehensible.

The key is having players who are very good in college and project as late 2nd to UDFA in the NBA draft.

The million dollar question is whether that exact thing is also why Gonzaga always has a high seed and has zero NC's to show for it. I'm not sure it's quite that simple, but I think it's a part of it. That's why I say so often you need multiple NBA players to win a natty.

[ChooChooCat]

I am surprised Chet’s not coming back. Gonzaga’s ability to retain players is incomprehensible.

The key is having players who are very good in college and project as late 2nd to UDFA in the NBA draft.

The million dollar question is whether that exact thing is also why Gonzaga always has a high seed and has zero NC's to show for it. I'm not sure it's quite that simple, but I think it's a part of it. That's why I say so often you need multiple NBA players to win a natty.

Arizona has had players like this leave regardless to start their pro careers (Ashley, Comanche, Alkins, Johnson, etc.) Now that may be a Sean Miller thing, that ultimately remains to be seen.

[EastCoastCat]

But it sure feels like all our players go and we watch other programs retain there's at a higher clip.

Emphasis on the word "feels".

[Spaceman Spiff]

I am surprised Chet’s not coming back. Gonzaga’s ability to retain players is incomprehensible.

The key is having players who are very good in college and project as late 2nd to UDFA in the NBA draft.

The million dollar question is whether that exact thing is also why Gonzaga always has a high seed and has zero NC's to show for it. I'm not sure it's quite that simple, but I think it's a part of it. That's why I say so often you need multiple NBA players to win a natty.

Arizona has had players like this leave regardless to start their pro careers (Ashley, Comanche, Alkins, Johnson, etc.) Now that may be a Sean Miller thing, that ultimately remains to be seen.

I mean, so has Gonzaga. Just in recent memory:

Joel Ayayi.
Filip Petrusev.
Zach Norvell.
Nigel Williams-Goss.

Those guys, to my judgment, were all in the orbit of 2nd to UDFA as the Arizona guys you cite, and all of them decided it was time to make the jump to the pros.

[Spaceman Spiff]

But it sure feels like all our players go and we watch other programs retain there's at a higher clip.

Emphasis on the word "feels".

My man.

That's why I respond with stuff about other schools. We see the guys leave here with minimal stock and remember, but forget guys like Ayayi leaving to be UDFA's who wouldn't have seen the league absent Omicron taking out half the players.

[Dave]

I wish it was just a feeling. Try and come up with a list of Arizona players that decided to come back when they would have been guaranteed 1st or 2nd round picks. Benn would be one. Not sure where RHJ or Derrick Williams were projected after their first year.

[IndianaZonaFan]

“Recent” (Miller era) guys leaving early and either went 2nd round or not drafted:

Jarrett
Bash
NJ
Trier
Kobi
B-Will
Nico
Commanche
Randolph

[azcat49]

Basketball certainly has more options to make money than other sports so I think the pay to play is a bigger draw early

Our program seems to be one that promotes getting to the highest level and it feeds off that, whether it’s the players feeling some peer pressure or this being the expectation.

One thing I am seeing though is that some of these pro athletes (especially football) are poorly equipped for the transition out of their sport. It seems a college degree to a second career path would really help.

[PHXCATS]

U of A will be fine everyone

R E L A X

[Spaceman Spiff]

“Recent” (Miller era) guys leaving early and either went 2nd round or not drafted:

Jarrett--Stuck on bench.
Bash--Left before losing minutes to Ryan Anderson.
NJ--Maxed out college potential.
Trier--See NJ, plus, he wasn't returning to an FBI decimated roster.
Kobi--Said he'd be a OAD during recruiting. He was a guy you buy in knowing what the deal is.
B-Will--100% knee with him. He'd have been welcomed back if he could have medically cleared.
Nico--Same as Kobi, he was a guy you take knowing he's OAD.
Commanche--The only Miller era player I truly think is a baffling decision to leave.
Randolph--It wasn't working out and Josh Green was going to take his minutes.

My thoughts above. More to the point, I think you can compile a similar list for any major program that recruits NBA talent.

[Longhorned]

I wish that, somehow, the NBA would make a 4 year rule where players either go directly to the G League or they're banned from the NBA and G League until after their fourth season in college. Basically bring down the talent level in D1 while allowing the rare opportunity for players who develop over a full college career. And allow G league players to switch to D1.

[EastCoastCat]

But it sure feels like all our players go and we watch other programs retain there's at a higher clip.

Emphasis on the word "feels".

My man.

That's why I respond with stuff about other schools. We see the guys leave here with minimal stock and remember, but forget guys like Ayayi leaving to be UDFA's who wouldn't have seen the league absent Omicron taking out half the players.

Thanks Spiff. I know the facts probably say otherwise and I fully admit my post was 100% based on emotional optics (if that is even a term).

I'm wondering if AZ, similar but maybe not on the same par as KY, with it's reputation for sending players to the League with "staying power" skews the statistics a bit.

Who knows, it is what it is I suppose and now it's about the future. Good thing our program still has the cache that we don't re-build, we just re-load.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I wish that, somehow, the NBA would make a 4 year rule where players either go directly to the G League or they're banned from the NBA and G League until after their fourth season in college. Basically bring down the talent level in D1 while allowing the rare opportunity for players who develop over a full college career. And allow G league players to switch to D1.

I figure this will be unpopular, but I sort of hate that because it's a continuation of the oppressive nature college athletics have had for far too long.

My example is Christian Koloko. He never would have had a G League future out of HS in that scenario. So he'd have gone to college, and would have been unable to leave after this year for what will almost assuredly be around 4 mil guaranteed.

Say he blows a knee in his one year of involuntary servitude at Arizona. It lays bare what the attitude of the system has been for too long, that young, largely poor and non-white players are there to perform for the amusement of old, rich, largely white boosters. If the price is stripping freedoms from all players and millions of earning potential from some, no biggie, they're disposable assets.

The price of greater rights for groups that traditionally haven't had them is recentering the role of those groups in the traditional system. It's as true in college sports as any other venue.

BTW, please do not take this as personally directed at you. I acknowledged up front that my opinion is unpopular because I think more people are on your side than would be on mine. None of this response is intended to be aimed specifically at you.

[Longhorned]

I wish that, somehow, the NBA would make a 4 year rule where players either go directly to the G League or they're banned from the NBA and G League until after their fourth season in college. Basically bring down the talent level in D1 while allowing the rare opportunity for players who develop over a full college career. And allow G league players to switch to D1.

I figure this will be unpopular, but I sort of hate that because it's a continuation of the oppressive nature college athletics have had for far too long.

My example is Christian Koloko. He never would have had a G League future out of HS in that scenario. So he'd have gone to college, and would have been unable to leave after this year for what will almost assuredly be around 4 mil guaranteed.

Say he blows a knee in his one year of involuntary servitude at Arizona. It lays bare what the attitude of the system has been for too long, that young, largely poor and non-white players are there to perform for the amusement of old, rich, largely white boosters. If the price is stripping freedoms from all players and millions of earning potential from some, no biggie, they're disposable assets.

The price of greater rights for groups that traditionally haven't had them is recentering the role of those groups in the traditional system. It's as true in college sports as any other venue.

BTW, please do not take this as personally directed at you. I acknowledged up front that my opinion is unpopular because I think more people are on your side than would be on mine. None of this response is intended to be aimed specifically at you.

It makes perfect sense but it's an extraordinary example: a 7' international player who came to the game late. We're balancing the extraordinary individual case earning a degree while blowing his knee during a fourth year in D1 v. the opportunity cost of a greater amount of less talented players earning their degrees on scholarship while earning on the side. Now, it's open to question whether the popularity of D1 would endure less talent. Without substantiation, I think the product would actually be better and therefore potentially more popular.

[Spaceman Spiff]

But it sure feels like all our players go and we watch other programs retain there's at a higher clip.

Emphasis on the word "feels".

My man.

That's why I respond with stuff about other schools. We see the guys leave here with minimal stock and remember, but forget guys like Ayayi leaving to be UDFA's who wouldn't have seen the league absent Omicron taking out half the players.

Thanks Spiff. I know the facts probably say otherwise and I fully admit my post was 100% based on emotional optics (if that is even a term).

I'm wondering if AZ, similar but maybe not on the same par as KY, with it's reputation for sending players to the League with "staying power" skews the statistics a bit.

Who knows, it is what it is I suppose and now it's about the future. Good thing our program still has the cache that we don't re-build, we just re-load.

I think you're right in that there's a circularity to a school that has a number of NBA alums.

NBA level talented players want to go to the NBA. They want a school that can get them there. Arizona had shown it can under Miller and now in the Miller/Lloyd transition.

Coaches want those guys because they have the talent to win big. The flip side is that you have to know when they're ready to go, they will.

It's the dilemma of today. To paraphrase Sean Miller's old analogy, you can't win the Indy 500 in a Geo Metro. The guys who can get you there have bigger plans than Arizona, though. And you get those guys in part by selling them on Arizona's ability to get them to that next level faster and better than other schools.

[EastCoastCat]

Spiff I hear you. This is and always will be a great discussion because at the end of the day legal, anti-trust factors come into play and I think the issue will continue to side with the players. NIL was just a first step.

The NCAA though, first, needs to crumble and a new governing body established.

My wild idea is to have the NCAA ( or whatever new body is put in place) and NBA basically compete against each other and allow the player to decide, based on their current market worth, if they want to jump to the League or get paid while staying in school. Why not? They are both providing entertainment value right? Difference is the college lifespan is only 4 years...or maybe 3 years if you put it in play starting the sophomore year.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Spiff I hear you. This is and always will be a great discussion because at the end of the day legal, anti-trust factors come into play and I think the issue will continue to side with the players. NIL was just a first step.

The NCAA though, first, needs to crumble and a new governing body established.

My wild idea is to have the NCAA ( or whatever new body is put in place) and NBA basically compete against each other and allow the player to decide, based on their current market worth, if they want to jump to the League or get paid while staying in school. Why not? They are both providing entertainment value right? Difference is the college lifespan is only 4 years...or maybe 3 years if you put it in play starting the sophomore year.

Very interesting topic and I appreciate your take. Title IX is one of the basic reasons college sports and the NBA will never operate on equal footing. Title IX usually gets publicity for gender issues, but the big thing is it means colleges can't participate in differential pay scales for athletes.

This levels money in a way the NBA never has to. NIL is at best a collateral substitute as it has to always rely on non-school resources.

Your abolish the NCAA view is music to my ears. I fully agree. I also think the reality is that D1 is bloated to the point you can't meaningfully have options vs the G League. As long as there have to be uniform rules for 320+ schools, the G League has a huge advantage because Kentucky is reined in by St. Bonaventure.

I'd start by killing the NCAA, taking TV rights for the tourney and using them for collective bargaining with top talent. This is partially why you need a non-school entity, to stay clear of Title IX.

Then, start offering top HS prospects 2 year guaranteed deals from TV money. The last tourney deal was 1.1 billion a year. Take 100 million to offer scale deals to say, top 40 players. You have 1 bil a year left for paying schools and operating costs. The HS players sign a deal for guaranteed $ in exchange for a 2 year commitment.

Longer than 2 years is unrealistic, IMO. 2 years...you're close to equal footing with the G League.

[YoDeFoe]

"2 years of college or pro (NBA or G League)" was my initial favorite for paths that high school recruits could take, but looking at it now I worry that would have forced too many kids into the G League. The G League... I'm not entirely sold on that as a place for developing kids - I think it works for some but doesn't have the track record of molding young men that college does. Likely would have seen a drop in talent in college and then a ton of guys go through the meat grinder of the G League before an equilibrium was found - either the G League improving to accommodate the number of income high school recruits or recruits recognizing that not everyone is fit for the G League (despite OAD dreams) and taking the two year commitment instead.

Again, all of this is moot given the new landscape.

[84Cat]

How many of you would have stayed in college if you were offered $4 mil to leave early to start your career? I know I wouldn't have since it took me several decades to make $4 million.

[EastCoastCat]

How many of you would have stayed in college if you were offered $4 mil to leave early to start your career? I know I wouldn't have since it took me several decades to make $4 million.

What is the present value worth of the kind of fun I had while I was in school?

Might not have been $4 mil worth but then again...

[Beachcat97]

How many of you would have stayed in college if you were offered $4 mil to leave early to start your career? I know I wouldn't have since it took me several decades to make $4 million.

There are already million-dollar NIL deals being offered, so at least with some student-athletes, college should be a more desirable option than in the past.

[Spaceman Spiff]

How many of you would have stayed in college if you were offered $4 mil to leave early to start your career? I know I wouldn't have since it took me several decades to make $4 million.

There are already million-dollar NIL deals being offered, so at least with some student-athletes, college should be a more desirable option than in the past.

More desirable but still not competitive with first or early 2nd round in the draft. That 4 mil is guaranteed money up to about pick #40.

High end NCAA basketball NIL deals are basically topping out at 1 year of what you get as pick #35-40. If you think you can go 25-30, the NBA offers more.

Add in that the player has a pot of gold at the end of the NBA rainbow, his second, much richer contract that the 4 mil in the NBA advances him towards. Top it off with the fact that the NBA is the ultimate goal and the career path...not college.

Low 2nd is about when I think it becomes realistic to look at someone returning, and NIL is probably not a huge component there. Like with Tshibwe...it was more about his lack of NBA stock than how much NIL was. His NIL just made the decision simpler.

[IndianaZonaFan]

“Recent” (Miller era) guys leaving early and either went 2nd round or not drafted:

Jarrett--Stuck on bench.
Bash--Left before losing minutes to Ryan Anderson.
NJ--Maxed out college potential.
Trier--See NJ, plus, he wasn't returning to an FBI decimated roster.
Kobi--Said he'd be a OAD during recruiting. He was a guy you buy in knowing what the deal is.
B-Will--100% knee with him. He'd have been welcomed back if he could have medically cleared.
Nico--Same as Kobi, he was a guy you take knowing he's OAD.
Commanche--The only Miller era player I truly think is a baffling decision to leave.
Randolph--It wasn't working out and Josh Green was going to take his minutes.

My thoughts above. More to the point, I think you can compile a similar list for any major program that recruits NBA talent.

All fair. I wasn’t implying (or trying to) that we have more or less than anyone. Just noting the ones I could remember.

[UAEebs86]

Peterson coming back to U$C

[Beachcat97]

Peterson coming back to U$C

Another guy who's not good enough for the NBA.

[Beachcat97]

How many of you would have stayed in college if you were offered $4 mil to leave early to start your career? I know I wouldn't have since it took me several decades to make $4 million.

There are already million-dollar NIL deals being offered, so at least with some student-athletes, college should be a more desirable option than in the past.

More desirable but still not competitive with first or early 2nd round in the draft. That 4 mil is guaranteed money up to about pick #40.

High end NCAA basketball NIL deals are basically topping out at 1 year of what you get as pick #35-40. If you think you can go 25-30, the NBA offers more.

Add in that the player has a pot of gold at the end of the NBA rainbow, his second, much richer contract that the 4 mil in the NBA advances him towards. Top it off with the fact that the NBA is the ultimate goal and the career path...not college.

Low 2nd is about when I think it becomes realistic to look at someone returning, and NIL is probably not a huge component there. Like with Tshibwe...it was more about his lack of NBA stock than how much NIL was. His NIL just made the decision simpler.

I don't disagree with any of that, Spiff.

I'm hoping Lloyd can avoid falling into the same pattern that Miller got locked into: overloading the roster with OADs (or two-and-dones) and struggling to secure *some* kind of roster continuity. It's just really, really hard to build towards a Final Four when you're constantly cycling in new players. We'll do fine in the Pac and always have. It's not hard to finish near the top of (or win) the league. It's much harder to construct a roster containing a blend of high-level three and four-year players and elite freshmen and sophomores. Kansas did it this past season.

[ZagCatFan]

Guys in the portal now who are worth a damn:

Ramey
Brooks
Malachi Smith
AJ Green
Pete Nance
Isaiah Mosely
Mouhamed Gueye

I’m sure there will be a few more as guys shift and grad transfer pop in - am I missing anyone right now?

Malachi Smith would be a home run. I guess Gonzaga seems like the favorite.

Zags did get Smith….

[YoDeFoe]

Keep chanting "Free Dom Harris" - together we can change the world

[IndianaZonaFan]

Keep chanting "Free Dom Harris" - together we can change the world

Wouldn’t he require a waiver from ncaa since he’s not a grad? —would be nice since he has 3 years left of eligibility

[YoDeFoe]

Keep chanting "Free Dom Harris" - together we can change the world

Wouldn’t he require a waiver from ncaa since he’s not a grad? —would be nice since he has 3 years left of eligibility

Yes, but I think he gets is easily since he sat out last season with the foot injury and the Zags likely support letting him go (if only so they can try and replace his scholarship with Baba Miller)

[IndianaZonaFan]

Keep chanting "Free Dom Harris" - together we can change the world

Wouldn’t he require a waiver from ncaa since he’s not a grad? —would be nice since he has 3 years left of eligibility

Yes, but I think he gets is easily since he sat out last season with the foot injury and the Zags likely support letting him go (if only so they can try and replace his scholarship with Baba Miller)

FREE DOM HARRIS! FREE DOM HARRIS!